K8048 connection problems

I’ve recently built the K8048 kit, and constructed it carefully, ensuring components are correct values and orientation wrt capacitors diodes etc.
when it is powered up without connection to the pc, the Power light illuminates, and when sw5 is put to run or prog, ld9 flashes, as expected. However whenever it is connected to the com port, and picprog2006 is run it cannot find the k8048. i have checked the portsettings of my pc, and they are all happy.
I have done continuity checks of the serial cable, and followed them through the mounted plug to the first component they reach. i have checked voltages wherever possible and i have 5v and 12 v where required (so i think?) so at present it appears there is a problem with the handshaking.
Are there any checks i can carry out on the board, to check levels etc.
I have the same problem wit the alternate pic prog software.
many thanks

Do you have an “all pins connected” serial cable? (Not just one that
carries Transmit, Receive and Ground.)

yeah, i built it myself using an old serial mobile phone cable, and one of the connectors from the kit, everthing is straight through.

[quote=“tonywhite”]However whenever it is connected to the com port, and picprog2006 is run it cannot find the k8048. i have checked the portsettings of my pc, and they are all happy.
I have done continuity checks of the serial cable, and followed them through the mounted plug to the first component they reach. i have checked voltages wherever possible and i have 5v and 12 v where required (so i think?) so at present it appears there is a problem with the handshaking.
Are there any checks i can carry out on the board, to check levels etc.
I have the same problem wit the alternate pic prog software.
many thanks[/quote]

{from another forum user}

Tony. I have a VM111 (the pre-built version.) I am using Progpic2.exe as the programmer s/w.

I assume you are getting a Windows pop-up headed ‘Error’, with the text “K4048 not found at COMx” when you try an operation like Write?

I can provoke this by disconnecting the PCserial lead from the rs-232 connector on the programmer, so I think your idea about connection/handshaking is sound.

The usual suspects are:
Does the Com Port selected in the Port drop-down in the s/w correspond with the serial port you want to use on your PC. (One of my machines has a modem on COM1, so the serial port is actually COM2, for instance.)

Is there any other automagically started s/w that binds to that serial port, that would block the programmer from using it? Dial-up modem? PDA sync?

Is it a ‘real’ serial port: apparently USB-to-serial adaptors aren’t up to the job.

If I can give you any other comparisons with a working version please ask - perhaps if Velleman mods are reading this they might be able to suggest board-level diagnostics?

Good luck

the error message you mentioned is correct. This is the first serial periferal i have run with this machine, and i have nothing else tied to it. I have two com ports, and have selected them both, and restarted picprog2006 each time to ensure the program is looking in the right place at start up. i have also powered up the programmer both prior to starting the programme, and after starting the programme just in case it made a difference.
i’m not really sure where to check levels, obviously the data puses during handshaking are going to momentary, and nothing in the circuit will latch to it, and as i only have a multi meter, i’m a bit stumped. my only thought at the mo, are to go and buy the transistors, in case one is duff.
i am going to the iraq on a ship quite soon, and was hoping to take this away to enable me to build a pic based circuit for the ship, but i’m running out of time!!!

Tony

Firstly, I’m only a user, and pretty much at the limits of my electronics hacking knowledge here - I’m hoping Velleman will chip in and try to advise. HINT!

Some thoughts about your serial ports, which is something I know a bit about.

Is it possible that your serial ports are not connected from the system board to the external connector, or that the connectors involved are not terminating all the status lines? Are you running with Administrator privileges, in case that is needed to manipulate the serial ports? Does your Operating System know that the ports are there - do they show up in Device Manager or similar? Although the K8048 doesn’t need to send async data back to the PC, would it be worth doing a simple loopback test (by linking Pins 2 and 3) at the PC or the end of the data cable, and sending test characters using Hyperterminal, to ‘smoke test’ the basic function of the serial ports and the ability of the OS to drive them? (This is testing your PC, not the K8048 board, because you say you haven’t previously used the serial ports.)

Re. the K8048 board itself -

It would be good to know from Velleman what signal state the programmer s/w expects to get from the board under these circumstances. My guess is that it is looking for the equivalent of ‘Clear to Send’ on Pin 8 to show the presence of the programmer board, but I might be wrong.

Dear Tony,

Please check the input voltage of your board, with a DVM you must measure at least 15V (use of 12V unregulated adapter is OK).
Software detects the board by a “loop-back” circuit on the board, so there could be also a connection problem (port, cable,…). You can always send the board to us for repair and test.

i’ve checked the voltage levels on the input side of the board and wound it up to 16v, the output of the voltage regulators is 13v and 5v. The com ports on the pc show up as fine in device manager and are working correctly. can you tell me which components carry out the loop back test, as, as much as i wish i had the time to send the board back to you for repair and test, i have two more days to get this working, before i go away for 7 months, or resign myself to having to go out and buy a ready built one, so any component level checks i can carry out with a multi meter would be appreciated.

Check if your serial cable is connected like this one on page 10. http://www.velleman.be/downloads/0/illustrated/illustrated_assembly_manual_k8076.pdf
Check de directions of diodes D4, D5, D6 and D7.

To see if a card is connected the program (PicProg2006) will pull-up the PGD pin and check if the signal is looped back to the RS232 port (T2 and T3)

The cable is confirmed as per the diagram except all cables are straight through, none are disconnected. diodes are all the correct orientation.

If i apply 5v (taken from the high end of r16) and apply it to pin 4 of the subD i read 5v at the output, on r12.

I have 0.8v on the base of t2, opening the junction as expected, this gives me 4.74v at the base of t3, which is a lot higher than i would have initially expected, however, looking at the ouput of t2, i have 0v, which to me suggests t2 is U/S, R7 has no voltage at its lower end, probably because it has no path to ground, so R8 and R9 have no voltage at there upper end, however R9 still has its 4.74v at its junction with the base of T3??? so is t3 (pnp?) u/s as well and the 4.74v is breaking through the junction?? there is 8Mohm of resistance between collector and emmiter on t3, 8meg base to r12, and 800k base to the 3rd, (i gett confused collector/ emmiter).

Any thoughts?

i’ve found the problem…

like a muppet, when i wired the lead up i did it inversely, although exactly the same as the diagram as it looks!!! i.e i connected the top left pin to the top left pin, not pi 5 to pin 5, if you do it the way i did it it ends up inverted, i’ve re-wired it and bobs your uncle (or in my case, my dad)

thanks your help, i feel a bit of a donut, but at least its working!!!

I’m pleased it’s solved. And thanks for explaining what happened - that’s another one for my list of things to check for!

Good luck with the trip - maybe one day you can blog about what you got up to out there and what the PIC-based device was that you built?

i’ll do what i can, but basically its a way of pressing a number on a door panel(number = person), that number equates to a name in eeprom. the name is then simultaneously displayed on an lcd display at the door, and 8,5x7 led displays in the room. it will mean that we don’t have to get off our arses if the person called for is not in the room. we just press the out button!!! The hardest part so far is translating ascii into 5x7 rows and columns. i’m not using a translator chip like the max232, just streaming row data one row at a time, and making it scroll. keep watching this site, i’ll post up the design and program!!

[quote=“tonywhite”]i’ve found the problem…

like a muppet, when i wired the lead up i did it inversely, although exactly the same as the diagram as it looks!!! i.e i connected the top left pin to the top left pin, not pi 5 to pin 5, if you do it the way i did it it ends up inverted, i’ve re-wired it and bobs your uncle (or in my case, my dad)

thanks your help, i feel a bit of a donut, but at least its working!!![/quote]

I see people referring to all pins being connect. Pins 1, 2 & 6 are shown not connected in my cable diagram for the K8048. Will this cause me problems?

Declan

[quote=“dpbarry”]I see people referring to all pins being connect. Pins 1, 2 & 6 are shown not connected in my cable diagram for the K8048. Will this cause me problems?

Declan[/quote]

{from another forum user, not on behalf of Velleman.}

I suspect the ‘people’ referred to here is me, writing in my first response to Tony’s query. I went on to say “Not just one that carries Transmit, Receive and Ground.” The minimum correct cable is the one shown in Velleman’s manual, referred to elsewhere in this thread. Connecting the other extra pins will make no difference, since they are not connected at the 9-pin connector on the K8048 board.

I didn’t reply to your (Declan’s) original query because it is beyond my experience, but I suspect that the problem is related to the Voltage (not current) of the power supplies you have tried.

I hope Velleman will confirm or deny this: I note that the circuit diagram for the power regulation circuitry for the K8048 is marked “15V DC Adapter”. I wonder whether with a 12V supply the 78L12 regulator fails to generate a high enough voltage out to meet the Vpp requirement of the PIC?

The power supply has to be 15VDC, the output voltage of the regulator is pulled up with 2 diodes (D2 and D3). 2 x 0.6V and 12V makes 13.2V, with a regulator drop for stabilization of 2V it should be 15.2V to be correct.

Can I suggest this should be made a FAQ or ‘Sticky’ for this part of the Forum?

There have been a number of questions about difficulties using the K8048/VM111 programmer and the ‘No Device ID’ message, which are possibly due to this voltage factor?

There are many places in the documentation for this kit/module where a 12V supply might be thought to be sufficient, for example -

velleman.be/be/en/product/view/?id=350903

illustrated_assembly_manual_k8048_rev4.pdf [Page 3]

usermanual_k8048_uk.pdf [Page 5: Sections 3 and 4, Page 6:Section 5]

velleman.be/be/en/product/view/?id=351982

usermanual_vm111_uk.pdf

It may not be obvious to a first-time user of a PIC programmer that the presence of the LD7 ‘Power’ LED only proves the presence of ‘logic’ (5V) power, and not the availability of the higher programming voltage that is also needed.

I hope these comments may be useful and that they allow users to get full use from their programmers.

Can I suggest this should be made a FAQ or ‘Sticky’ for this part of the Forum?

[/quote]

If further clarification is needed, perhaps it could explain that a 12V psu is satisfactory to ‘run’ the microcontroller (for which only a 5V ‘logic’ voltage is required), but that at least a 15V psu is needed to ‘program’ the microcontroller because this requires a ‘programming’ voltage which at a minimum is 12V for the supplied 16F627.

(From measurement, a 12V supply at the input jack results in a level just below 10V on the Vpp line - this does not meet Microchip’s Memory Programming Specification for the PIC16F62X devices.)

The design of the K8048/VM111 programmers is not at fault: a little more understanding of how to use them correctly might save a lot of customer frustration.

[quote=“smartGPX”][quote=“dpbarry”]I see people referring to all pins being connect. Pins 1, 2 & 6 are shown not connected in my cable diagram for the K8048. Will this cause me problems?

Declan[/quote]

{from another forum user, not on behalf of Velleman.}

I suspect the ‘people’ referred to here is me, writing in my first response to Tony’s query. I went on to say “Not just one that carries Transmit, Receive and Ground.” PIC?[/quote]

Hi SmartGPX…

Sorry, I hope you weren’t offended by me using the term ‘people’. I was just generalising as a whole as there were a number of people on the forum who seem to have problems with this board.

I managed to get a PSU that is delivering approx 15.1v at the plug end (small variable Economatics PSU) but still no joy with the 627 PIC. I put in an 84A PIC and got a little further in that it attempted to program it but fell foul of an error - and that was one of the demo’s compiled. I’m going to borrow another PSU from the school that can go a little highter that the 15.1 volts that the current PSU is delivering. I won’t push it too far though :wink:

Declan

[quote=“dpbarry”]

I managed to get a PSU that is delivering approx 15.1v at the plug end (small variable Economatics PSU) but still no joy with the 627 PIC. I put in an 84A PIC and got a little further in that it attempted to program it but fell foul of an error - and that was one of the demo’s compiled. I’m going to borrow another PSU from the school that can go a little highter that the 15.1 volts that the current PSU is delivering. I won’t push it too far though :wink:

Declan[/quote]

If you don’t make progress on your own, and Velleman don’t come up with any suggestions, I could try to replicate the situation. If you want, have a look at my website to find an email address and send me the HEX files you are trying to burn. Are you using the ‘orginal’ ProgPic2, or the newer PicProg2006?