Based on your current experience with your Vertex, what would you consider as nice improvements for the next-generation Vertex?
I have to say that I have been pretty pleased with my Vertex, but there has been some things I felt could have been easily fixed to provide a much better better user experience.
My list would be something like the following, in no particular order:
[ul]
[li]Heated bed. This is something I would never live without. This is probably the best upgrade I have ever done to the Vertex. And it needs to be fast. Max. 2 minutes up to 110 deg C.[/li]
[li]Safe power supply. The curent power supply is ridiculous and I highly doubt it is legal for a consumer product. The power supply should obviously support the fast heated bed.[/li]
[li]Options for direct printing on alu-bed or on glass with binder clips and easy removal options. This may sound strange, but with the current design it is not that easy to add binder clips imo. PEI, buildtak, etc can alway be added to a top-layer of glass if needed.[/li]
[li]Enclosure option. For large prints in ABS this would really help delamination problems. Just heating the enclosure to 55 deg C has basically solved all my delamination problems. But the design needs to accomodate it in order to avoid over-heating the steppers (in the current design the stepper placements could easily be changed to be outside the box)[/li]
[li]Automatic bed leveling and mesh grid leveling. I know some people don’t think this is needed and I have to say that I have never tried it myself, but on the other hand I do have problems with my bed not being completely flat and with a 4 mm inductive sensor I am sure the repeatability will be much better than 10 um (see Tom Sanladerer videos on this), so it should be possible to do this relatively easily as Marlin already includes the code. The Prusa i3 MK2 also corrects XY misalignments, but I don’t think this is really needed.[/li]
[li]The rod movement issue - see viewtopic.php?f=64&t=16383&start=45 - should really be fixed. I don’t think it actually affects the print quality much, but from an engineering stand-point it is a bad design. [/li]
[li]I really like the Ultimaker-like gantry system on the Vertex. I have never, ever understood the Prusa i3 system with a moving bed, although I guess there is a reason for it (speed not being one of them imo). So this should definitely be kept. [/li]
[li]However the “self-lubricating” Iglidur bearings I don’t get. I think the brass ones has better tolerance and lubrication is needed anyways. Your mileage may vary though.[/li]
[li]I much prefer a lead screw instead of the threaded rod for the z-axis. Honestly I think the basic accuracy of the threaded rod if fine, however the combination of several aspects of the mounting of the rod makes it a non-ideal choice. We have seen issues with the mounting to the stepper motor (this is obviously also a problem with a lead screw) and slightly bend threaded rods (almost never an issue with lead screws) but I think that the entire z-axis may require some tweaking to make it really good.[/li]
[li]The actual printhead is just stupid. The two fans are both noisy, both fans acts as cooling for the peek insulator, the small fan cools the entire heater block (!) and the fan does not provide adequate cooling 360 deg around the nozzle which is quite visible in certain prints. Additionally the print head can not reach temperatures for the interesting filaments. Just use an E3D v6 all-metal; it would be much easier and the community in general agrees that this is one of the best options (I honestly don’t think the nozzle as such provides any advantage, but the option to easily swap nozzle and use an off-the-shelf known-to-work solution is imo important). A good fan-duct still need to be designed though. [/li]
[li]Filament end sensor is really something I start to miss. It would be so nice to come out to the printer in the morning, see that it has paused due to no more filmanet, change the filament and resume instead of now when you have to restart the job (or switch filament a long time before it ends because you don’t know how much is actually needed for a given print). Marlin supports this and a filement end sensor is easy to make, so it should be easy to add.[/li]
[li]The low-voltage issue - see for example viewtopic.php?f=62&t=18058 - should simply be fixed.[/li]
[li]The plastic pulley with only a single bore hole should be replaced with metals ones with two bore holes[/li]
[li]Although the acrylic case indeed looks nice, I really think it is way too flexible for a 3d printer. It would be much better to have aluminum or steel (!) or something like maybe sandwiched alu-plates (such as Dibond). [/li]
[li]An interchangeable printerhead with either direct drive or Bowden style would really be nice! With only Bowden-style printer-head it is difficult/impossible to print flexible material. It should be relatively simple to make this, but the gantry-system obviously needs to be able to handle the larger mass.[/li]
[li]Multi-material/color option. I know that it is possible to add an extra printhead and I actually have this lying around, but I have never actually mounted it, mostly because from what I have read the oozing becomes a problem. The prusa i3 mk2 multi-material upgrade seems to be a much better option, see shop.prusa3d.com/es/printer-upgr … grade.html[/li]
[li]Add some lighting to the box. It becomes sooooo much easier to see things…[/li][/ul]
Some of these changes would be easy/no cost to include whereas some would cost a little more than currently, but on the grand scheme of things, I don’t really think it would be that much. In any case many of the things could simply be offered as options.
I think Velleman would have difficulties making all of the wish list become reality with any K8400 replacement without increasing the cost significantly. The basic engineering can be improved at little cost - moving the steppers outside the enclosure, using better quality pulleys, fix the rod shuttling issue & tweak the Z-axis arrangement. What adds cost are items like a heated bed and dual head printing out of the box, but agree the E3D V6 should be the stock head available for the machine due to the nozzle ecosystem, wide community support and constant R&D from E3D. It is simply better engineered than the existing PEEK design.
• Supply a beefy 24v PSU capable of running 24v nozzle heaters and a 24v heated bed (as an optional accessory). All 230V connections enclosed by default, supply mains power switch on case, IEC cable inlet. Safety first!
• Supply the machine with one head (perhaps the E3D V6lite out-the-box, with option for the user to upgrade easily on a DIY basis to an E3D V6 or two of them). Re-engineer cooling strategy.
• Move to using a more generic RAMPS board with 3 or 4x extruder outputs. CMY-K prints become possible then. Maybe use stock Marlin, rather than anything customised?
• Auto bed levelling as an accessory. Manual bed levelling is a little time comsuming, but not essential for me.
Yes - a direct extruder would be nice as an option to print flexibles, but I dont think that would work well for a dual / tri / quad print head setup. The carriage weight would be too much. Printers with a gantry seem to be better for direct extruders and cartesian printers seem to suit Bowden better.
As a kit, the K8400 has taught me so much in the 18 months I have owned it. Sure, it has its flaws, but many of them can be resolved with some DIY and ingenuity. The typical user this kit is aimed at is one who likes to re-engineer things!
Every 3D printer has it’s flaws.
If you get on the forums board for all of the others you will see.
The direct drive extruder would not be a good idea because of the weight that would (in my opinion would cause more headaches)
Just to be clear: These are things I would like in an ideal upgrade to the Vertex. I know I can do a lot of these things to the existing design…
I don’t think it would be that difficult to design a direct drive for the vertex (with few design changes). The xyz printer I have is basically the same design wrt. Xy, but has a direct drive. But it will be heavier, that’s for sure. Is it worth it for just printing soft materials? I don’t know. I have only used my xyz for nylon, i have no idea whether the Vertex can do that, but the temperature is limited…
Options for direct printing on alu-bed = already possible, just try harder.
Just heating the enclosure to 55 deg C has basically solved all my delamination problems = delamination is due to bad slicing or faulty printer setup. Heating the box to fix it is like pissing your pants to keep warm … just wait, you’ll see.
Automatic bed leveling - REALY not necessary. Try harder. I level my bed perfect everytime with current setup.
The rod movement issue… it is a bad design = so true
However the “self-lubricating” Iglidur bearings I don’t get. I think the brass ones has better tolerance and lubrication is needed anyways. Your mileage may vary though.
The actual printhead is just stupid = so true. PEEK is 175 times slower than steel at releasing heat. They simply used the wrong material.
Filament end sensor is really something I start to miss = buy more filament
Although the acrylic case … is way too flexible for a 3d printer = true. the case is shit. They crack and velleman support says its not their problem. useless.
An interchangeable printerhead = can’t have a cake and eat it too
Multi-material/color option = only for kids printing toys
Why think about a next generation Vertex, and not about improving the K8400 ?
Here make you new users, but also the old users of the K8400 happy with.
I would like to see standard on the K8400 a E3Dv6 & GT2 pulleys and belts on the K8400, and for the old K8400 upgrade kits.
This make the printer not extra expensive, but well much better
And optionally as an add on, a heat bed kit, and a Auto bed levelling kit for the K8400
This would make the K8400 so much better that you get immediately a better position on the 3D printer market
I do not mean to offend anyone, but here is a serius tip; I don’t know any skilled user of 3d printers who needs auto bed levelling. Anyone who would recommend auto-bed leveling, is clearly not skilled enough to offer advice on the matter.
The 3-point leveling on the K8400 is PERFECT. Once every third print i adjust the bed a quarter to half a turn on the knobs. very tiny trims due to removal of prints.
If the trimmers on the K8400 doesn’t do it for you, you don’t know how to use them. Putting automatic functions on the things you don’t know how to use is a downwards spiral to uselessness. Take the time, learn the trade.
[quote=“DaveMaker”]
I do not mean to offend anyone, but here is a serius tip; I don’t know any skilled user of 3d printers who needs auto bed levelling. Anyone who would recommend auto-bed leveling, is clearly not skilled enough to offer advice on the matter.[/quote]
And anyone saying this is clearly not skilled enough to state something so arrogant. I know plenty of skilled 3d printer-people with bend beds who would benefit from mesh leveling. Yes, obviously you can just upgrade your bed to a flat one, but the point here is that in practise some beds are bend and mesh leveling actually helps. With an inductive sensor you still need to zero it in; but that is beyond the point; an automatic bed-leveling would still be useful (if it works, that is).
Obviously it seems like you don’t need it; good for you.
[quote=“pmbdk”][quote=“DaveMaker”]
I do not mean to offend anyone, but here is a serius tip; I don’t know any skilled user of 3d printers who needs auto bed levelling. Anyone who would recommend auto-bed leveling, is clearly not skilled enough to offer advice on the matter.[/quote]
And anyone saying this is clearly not skilled enough to state something so arrogant. I know plenty of skilled 3d printer-people with bend beds who would benefit from mesh leveling. Yes, obviously you can just upgrade your bed to a flat one, but the point here is that in practise some beds are bend and mesh leveling actually helps. With an inductive sensor you still need to zero it in; but that is beyond the point; an automatic bed-leveling would still be useful (if it works, that is).
Obviously it seems like you don’t need it; good for you.[/quote]
Obviously it did offend you, If so, i’m sorry, but only the injured wolf cries out.
But no, i don’t need it, and like i said, i don’t really think anyone does.
If you need a flat item, a printer with an uneven bed with mesh leveling, will never give you a flat item.
To me, adding equipment that automatically accounts for uneven beds that should be even, is to me at least, unprofessional. But eh, if that makes me arrogant, i’ll take that too.
I have owned and built many types of printers, but in context of this debate, i’d like to mention my M3D Micro.
This is the cheapest printer i’ve had - you cant even level the bed, at all, its firmly stuck. You can’t level the rods either. It doesn’t even have endstops. BUT, non of it it necessary. It printed perfectly even the first time, and everytime since.
This printer is a very good example that there is no reason to over-complicate things.
You can print perfect without leveling. You can print perfect with manual leveling. Tell me more about automatic leveling.
I guess I will throw my 2 cents in.
I have been working with the K8400 for a few years now.
The only time I have had to level the bed is I disassemble and reassemble the print heads or change the Buildtak sheet.
Once it’s set it stays that way.
An auto leveling bed would be nice but would also be more things to break.
It would also make the cost of the printer higher which would turn most people off to an entry level printer.
It would also be nice if Velleman would make this and a heated bed as an add on.
If you look at most of the other printers that are available the do not have these feature either and if you look at their forums board they also have their own special problems.
No I am not an expert but have been working with the K8200 and the K8400 for a long time.
This is the most frustrating fun you can have.
LOL
Of course you can, that is not really the issue here. It’s all about user-friendlyness.[/quote]
Oh i see. I think we have very different views of what the K8400 is for.
For me, it’s an open-source printer KIT. Emphasis on it being a kit, which means the target group is not those who needs plug&play, but rather more technical people who wants high functionality for their money and who’s willing to build it themselves and who wants the option to make mods themselves - for which additional start-up cost and more stuff to break is not preferred.
Of course if the target group switches to the “every-man plug&players”, bed leveling would be an advantage, but there are many other printers out there i’d recommend to this target group, than the K8400.
Wiring is notoriously bad when dealing with high power for an extended period of time, and by extended I’m referring to 10 or 15 hour prints, which is not that long for a print using most of the k8400 build volume. I have had wires connecting to the stepper motors burning from not being able to withstand the current flowing through them while operating in regular conditions. Heater cartridge wiring is also deficient, burning on long prints. Usually wires burn out near the plug or in the plug itself.
It is super frustrating spending hours calibrating and improving the k8400, only to have awful prints because the hardware fails mid print. Note that, even though I have made some upgrades to my printer, I’ve always used the original electrical components supplied by Velleman. Also this hardware limitations make it almost impossible for the printer to be reliable.
As for having 3 calibration points, here are my two cents:
The 3 point bed levelling is far from perfect and makes it hard to calibrate the printer because, even though 3 points always make a solid support, making that surface perfectly levelled is nearly impossible.
If the build surface was a triangle, 3 points would be enough to guarantee perfect leveling, but the build surface is a rectangle, which means that there are 2 vertices that do not have a calibration point directly beneath them, making the build plate prone to Y-axis and X-axis rotation.
Think of it as a stool to sit on. You can have a perfectly good stool with 3 legs, they are even cheaper to produce, but most stools are 4 legged because it is easier to level them and the are sturdier. In a 4 legged stool, the stool can be levelled if one of the legs fails, and you can still sit on it without any problem, as long as you don’t put much weight on the vertex where the leg is missing. If you take a 3 legged stool and do the same thing, it just stops being a stool and becomes garbage, as you can not safely sit on it anymore, as it won’t stand without any outside force. The same thing happens with the k8400, where the front bed levelling point is very hard to calibrate in order to have the bed perfectly levelled. 4 calibration ponts would be way better to calibrate.
Automatic bed levelling is not a must have on every printer, I am able to calibrate any bed manually without a problem, but having automatic bed levelling would make things easier and ending up saving me a LOT of time, while guaranteeing that my 1st layer quality has consistency.
