Ideas for improvement - rant

You want ideas for improvement Velleman, I will give them, but I will start by saying Im fairly disappointed in the Vertex. My previous printer was the K8200, and while it had its flaws, it has mostly been an enjoyable learning experience and is still being used regularly. I assumed Velleman had learned from it too when we ordered the vertex, but I was wrong. So here is a list of things I think are wrong with this printer.

  • Hotend

The nozzles are proprietary, the price isnt bad, but you cant buy them from the places where you usually buy the rest of your stuff, like filament. And worse, there are no different sizes. .35mm size doesnt fit all, its unsuitable for compound filaments or translucent prints. The tiny nozzle and thus limited flow and layer height also makes that for rough prints, my K8200 is actually faster. A LOT faster even.

The print head design also isnt very convenient for maintenance. When a nozzle clogs, you can bet you cant easily remove the heatblock from the nozzle, and thus you have to remove everything, including temp sensor and associated wires. Then it gets worse, because you cant really remove the sensor while the nozzle is in the heatblock. I normally torch clogged nozzles, but now I cant because Id be torching the sensor. My hotend is currently in my kitchen oven at 180C hoping that will let me separate the nozzle from the block without damaging the sensor wire.

I also dont like the wire coming out at the bottom, just barely scraping over prints.

why did you not opt for an all metal hotend (like an E3D) with industry standard nozzles and no worries about peek melting and painless nozzle switching? This was probably by far the most popular and useful aftermarket upgrade to the K8200.

  • cooling

When I saw the pictures with 2 fans I automatically assumed one fan to cool the hotend, one to cool the print. Makes sense no? Not so! Who thought it was a good idea to have both (very different) fans do 2 very different things simultaneously with a single control ? When printing PLA, I want a decent airflow, but then heating up takes forever. When bridging, I want to cool the print as much as I can, but then the nozzle with the underdimensioned heating element cools down way too much. When printing ABS at high temperature, I dont want my peek to melt, so I need reasonable cooling on the hotend, but I also dont want to warp the print by overcooling through those same fans. I cant choose! That alone makes printing ABS or high temp filaments almost impossible. It also confuses the heck out of slicers. Really, whoever designed this cooling, should be fired.

The tiny fan at the bottom also seems like an afterthought and hardly an efficient way to cool whatever its supposed to cool (PCB?). Why not a larger less noisy fan at least?

  • Heated bed

Im sure Im not the first to say this, but really, no heated bed? Not even as an option? Build tak is not an alternative for it. It sticks perhaps too well to PLA, mine lasted all of one print with glass PLA (its still cemented to it, even after pulling off the build tak and bending it, putting it in the freezer, its there forever), and it doesnt stick nearly well enough for other materials, again making ABS pretty much impossible. The price is also exuberant considering it adds nothing over hairspray on a glass bed. Adding a heated bed is going to be a bit of a pain, changing Z sensors, PSU, etc because the printer isnt prepared for one. Upgrading the heat bed on the K8200 was perhaps the second most popular upgrade, and so for their next printer, Velleman decided we didnt need one at all :frowning:

Minor gripes

  • extruders are painful (literally) to operate
  • pulleys are too soft and/or grub screws to secure them, too small.
  • Having to align 2 extruders to ~0.05mm essentially by cutting teflon tube to length is maybe not the best concept. Yeah you can just use force to screw the nozzle in or out a tiny bit more, but then it will either be too lose with the teflon not touching both sides, or it will be jammed so hard its even harder to ever clear a clogged nozzle.
  • Enclosure that doesnt enclose. WHy not add a door and a bulged top so the printer is actually fully enclosed?
    Of course, without heatbed, there is not much point anyway I guess.

In the end, for the price perhaps I expected too much, but I was hoping for a clear improvement over the K8200 with dual nozzle abilities. What I got was a printer that realistically can only print regular PLA, thats pretty good for fine prints, but slow for large/rough prints, a second nozzle that is all but unusable for dissoluble filament (my main motivation to buy this printer) and a lot of frustration. I had offered my K8200 for sale when I received the vertex, but I decided to keep it. Not sure Ill keep the vertex.

/end rant

i don’t want to spend much time on this, but it seems that you have bought you the wrong printer.

For me it was, and stil is, the vertex the best printer-kit you can get for this money !

Six months ago it takes me into 3d-printing fast and easy, my third print was usable and now i get perfekt prints and good quality, also with ABS. If you do it right, the build-tak is not bad for PLA, i have made approximated 350 smaler and bigger prints and it is stil operational (now with some dents and marks ;-))

This kit is made for ‘makers’, e.g. if you want a heatbed without own input you should by you a readymade printer with heatbed included.
For me it was no problem, with all the information and help you can find around here, to extend my printer with a MK2 heatbed for less than 30 Euros (Mk2 7.60, switching supply 12.- , MOS-FET’s 6.- , insulation 2.50, some wire) Have had fun and learned a lot also.

I like it beeing ‘creative’ and as i wrote before: here we bring all our knowledge and experience together in a liberal and ‘very democratic’ way and at the end we have excellent printers money can’t by.

Think you’re expecting too much for a €600 kit printer. You saw the specs when you bought it. It’s a PLA printer. It has the simplest form of dual head printing. They’ve never managed to print with PVA, it carbonizes in the nozzle.

Lots of mods on here to get round the issues you mention (which are all valid). If you don’t like the thought of modding your printer, then getting a cheap kit printer was a bad move.

TBH, the market is totally saturated with printers of various types. I wouldn’t buy another Velleman, but I’ve really enjoyed this one. It’s all about learning. The Velleman is pretty open and hackable. If you’re already an experienced 3D printer, I would expect you to make an informed choice over your next printer. For example, I know that in future I will want the option of higher temperature printing and that means I’ll need a heated bed. But I wouldn’t have known that a year ago when I got the K4800.

For me, the whole point of getting a cheap kit was discover the limits, understand what I wanted and how much I would use it. I’ll probably spend more than double what I did on the K8400 on my next printer. I certainly won’t be getting another cheap kit; I don’t see how it would improve much on what I’ve got. And I’m guessing that’s how you feel about the K8400?

Frankly, its not that cheap. Its all relative, but I paid 700 euro for the kit, 130 for the second head/extruder, and some more for the heated bed, extra PSU and other necessities. All combined pretty close to 1000. You can get preassembled dual head printers for nearly half that price, like the Malyan M180.

Maybe its crap, but some prints Ive seen dont look half bad and it ticks all the boxes (heated bed, direct drive, SD card, decent build volume, cooling setup thats not braindead,…). I did chose to spend some more to hopefully get a better, more mature product, sadly, I cant really say I feel I got that.

As for modding, I dont mind doing it, but without mods its predecessor printed just fine and almost any material you wanted. Everything I modded on the K8200 was for convenience or slightly better quality, not because it was strictly necessary. The vertex is step backwards in so many ways I begin to regret not upgrading the K8200 to dual head instead.

And the fully enclosed printers have to pay royalties to stratasys… So thats why its NOT fully enclosed.
Best DIY printer +++++++ SO thats PLUS factory support and +++++++++ [size=150]Decent No nonsense waranty[/size]!!!

But the final product will be as good as one assembles it…

Kind regards!
JeAfKe

[quote=“jeafke”]And the fully enclosed printers have to pay royalties to stratasys… So thats why its NOT open.
[/quote]

Really, was under the impression the patent ran out in '09.

And as I recall, the suit was (among other things) about the heated bed as means of controlling the environment temperature, not the enclosure:[quote]
The ‘058 Patent
Stratasys alleges that this patent covers the heated build environment, specifically the heated build platform. Heated build platforms help to avoid warping problems with many 3D printers. They are common on many 3D printers today.[/quote]
makezine.com/2013/11/27/stratasy … -industry/

And btw also about controlling infill, something the vertex certainly does.

It has yet to go to trial, I doubt (m)any manufacturers decided to pay royalties for it.

I added a heated bed; admittedly it wasnt that hard, just required a different Z axis stopper (tricky print, good thing my faithful K8200 still works :p), an extra PSU, a power expander, some baking silicone,…

I soldered the heatbed on the underside and left out the leds, so I could use the entire original glass bed. Not happy with the bulldog clips, they take up too much space and can collide with printing head. I need another solution for that.

Some of the other problems Ive been having I now attribute to poor PLA. The ‘devil design’ PLA I ordered causes some weird issues, its difficult to extrude even at 220C (way above recommended temp), it underextrudes for some reason (diameter seems accurate) and causes extruder slippage. I blamed the vertex, but when I swap the roll with a formfutura one, left to right extruder, the formfutura prints fine on almost any temp and the devilish PLA exhibits those problems on either extruder.

Printing with one print head (either one), Im getting quite good results in regular PLA. Currently stress testing with this monster print:

edit: and after 13 hours, a layer shifted :(. Not entirely sure what caused it.

Printing HIPS also works fine with the heated bed, so when my limonene arrives, I may actually finally try some dissolvable support prints.

But using both heads, is still an uphill battle, with various software issues (ok, not blaming the vertex for that), causing jams if one isnt used for a long time which I do attribute to the print head design. The biggest problem, compound, clear and flexible filaments are still next to impossible.

Currently considering upgrading to a dual E3D setup, but then I feel silly having bought the not so cheap velleman upgrade kit. Alternatively, I may try to drill out a stock nozzle and put one wide nozzle on one extruder, to be used for compounds or support, and one fine for usual fine prints. Swapping nozzles is a pain in the butt on this printer, but its not often that Id need 2 small or 2 large nozzles.

You should have a look at your extruder-motors, please see tread “Optimizing Extruder(s)” here in this forum and i work with different glas-plates, all mounted with neodym magnets approx. 15x2.5x5 mm, glued 4 on the edges of the aluminum-plate and 4 under the edges of the glas-plate (with resin good for 150°C, e.g. UHU Plus Endfest 300). Insulation and MK2 is between them. You get these magnets cheap at banggood …

Holds very good, easy take away by sliding right or left and no clips or brackets any more !

Read this Article

This is the patent http://www.google.com/patents/US6722872

Kind Regards
JeAfKe

[quote=“P4man”]edit: and after 13 hours, a layer shifted :(. Not entirely sure what caused it.[/quote]If the shifting is about 1 mm or less it can be caused by the rod sliding in the bearings. This issue has a solution in the topic Solution for moving rods.

Hi all,
I was thinking about buying a 3D printer and came along the K8400.
I bought it, build it and started modifying it.

And actually, that was the goal of the game.

I do agree on the dismounting a blocked nozzle, that is absolutely disappointing.
That’s why I changed to E3D dual heads…
I added a heated bed and made some modifications, like addig a door and building a topp encloser.

Actual I will add autoadjustment of the print bed…

I would buy this printer again, because of the capability to be modified :slight_smile:

Layer shift could be an issue of lubricating… I figured out that by myself and with some info from raby.
I accidentely used silicon spray, which is not designed to be use by steel on steel movements.
I use teflon-oil, which causes no layer shift anymore, lubrication is the most important thing, I learned

Just some comments on the improvements from my side. First I selected the K8400 due to the moderate price for a two nozzle printer. The mechanical stability seemed to be OK.

I explicitly looked for a device with small nozzle diameter and high resolution in all axes. There are enough printer which are capable of doing fast and rough.

After a short time I became aware of the drawbacks of the actual design. I applied some modifications to improve the printer:

  • Guide for the Z-Axis on top side
  • Extruder housing with straight feeding of the filament
  • and : most important, a new heat block.

The mechanical configuration for the temperature sensor is very unlucky in my opinion. So I designed a new block using a PT1000 temperature sensor in ceramic housing, which get a close contact to the heater block and a good temperature reading in all operation conditions. No danger of burned PEEK isolator.

In this configuration I was able to print parts with different materials: PLA, brassfill, broncefill, laywood, Flex1000 TPE50, t-glace
Every material which can be processed without heated bed.

My target is to print carbon filled filament, the the real pity with Vellemann is that they don’t offer suitable nozzles with sufficient hardness. Actually the E3D V6 hotends are very popular for replacement in this forum, so I checked this device, for which suitable nozzles are available.
In my opinion the cooling block with the large fan is a nonsense and I ordered the heating block, the nozzle and the adapter part only. By cutting the long end of the adapter it could be used in the PEEK isolator from the K8400. At that time I noticed the large tolerances of the filament guide: 2mm instead of 1.8mm in the Vellemann design. The heater cartridge is not completely mounted, leaving a part of the cartridge unused in air. The heat block material is aluminum instead of brass. The mounting of the thermal sensor is solved very good.
I assembled the nozzle according to the instructions from E3D (complete winding into the hole and then a quarter rotation back) with the result, that I could not print. I needed to increase the hotend temperature by 20-25 °C to get an initial filament flow, which becomes worse after a short time. This configuration is completely unusable. Even with a complete winded nozzle tt doesn’t improve.
No I believe to understand the concept of E3D, which I may characterize as “brute force extrusion”. The hotend need a strong heater to produce much heat, which is drained in the cooling block. This is generation a constant heat flow with a good temperature control. The nozzle is participating from this heat flow, and even if the thermal coupling is poor, the filament is pre-heated in the tube before sufficiently to achieve a sutable extrusion.

This is a completely different approach to the temperature control approach from the K8400, where the majority of the heat will be used for the filament heating. You can use a less powerful heater to achieve the same temperature. So with the heat block as main modification I will maintain the original K8400 approach for now. In my opinion this is still the smarter approach.

To enlarge the variety of printable materials a heated bed will be an improvement for sure. That is an the third option for Vellemann to improve a lot.

[quote=“hoh61”]
In my opinion the cooling block with the large fan is a nonsense and I ordered the heating block, the nozzle and the adapter part only[/quote]

Actually, its one of the key advantages of the E3D design: a sharp temperature difference between the hot and cold end. This improves print quality and dramatically reduces the chances of clogging nozzles.

I hope you didnt miss the part where you have to heat the hotend to 285C before winding it in. If you didnt do that (and you shouldnt with your peek cold end!), then obviously it will not make good contact:

[quote]Set the HotEnd temperature to 285ºC.

When the HotEnd is at tempereature, tighten the nozzle whilst holding the heater block with a spanner. This will tighten the nozzle against the HeatBreak and ensure that your HotEnd does not leak. You want to aim for 3Nm of torque on the hot nozzle - this is about as much pressure as you can apply with one finger on a small spanner. The nozzle does not need to be torqued down incredibly tightly to form a good seal, when at lower tempreatures the aluminium will contract and hold the Nozzle and HeatBreak together.[/quote]

Thank you for your feedback.

I tightened the nozzle at 270°C (the maximum temperature limit of the firmware), it doesn’t change anything.

From the design of the E3D hotend I can hardly assume a sharp transition between hot and cold end. The other way round makes sense. K8400 filament is driven from the PTFE tube in the isolator to the heated brass guide of the nozzle. For E3D the PTFE tube is running inside the warm cooler assembly before it is ending in the adaptor part. I can hardly believe that this transition is harder than at the K8400.

In my opinion this smoother transition is the reason for the lower risk of isolator clogging.

However, the e3d approach “feels” not the right way for me.

On my stock K8400 heads, printing at >240C, on long prints, particularly dual filament prints, the filament heats up all the way in to feeder. I was shocked when I found out when it jammed and I got the bowden loose, how far the heat had crept up. To keep my prints from jamming, I have to run the fans as fast as I can without overcooling the nozzle (the airflow of which also causes ABS prints to warp), and still the filament gets too warm because the isolator, well, also isolates the heat from the airflow.

On my K8200’s E3D, the cold end doesnt even get luke warm, let alone further up. Upgrading the stock hotend is the best I ever did for that printer and Im definitely gonna upgrade the vertex as well. But, whatever works for you.

Some remarks…

[quote=“frank.von.thienen”]…
Actual I will add autoadjustment of the print bed…

I use teflon-oil, which causes no layer shift anymore, lubrication is the most important thing, I learned[/quote]

I’ve been tinkering about auto bed leveling. But it hit me at some point this is nearly impossible with a dual nozzle setup… The second nozzle will hit the object at some point when the head is going In the wrong direction and the bed compensating.

Ptfe oil all the way. Seems to be the magic juice this printer needs once and a while.

Also for the dude that doesn’t like the e3d concept. You shouldn’t compare both setups and parameters with each other. I’m printing for 4 months now with the e3d chimera head and. I absolutely love it! I got only 1 clogged nozzle due to a fan wire failure. And I ruined a heatbreak by over tightening it the first time I’ve assembled it. But comparing it with the stock nozzles is comparing a plastic overly complex and flawed cooled LIGIER IXO versus a BMW M6. Yes they both get you to your Destination. But with the M6 you can take the autobahn and arrive before the LIGIER even gets to the first intersection.

The k8400 is a ridiculously well priced printer to get things started and act as platform you will upgrade and change to your own liking afterwards. But I wouldn’t buy it as a printer that you can rely and financially depend on every single day.
Buy a ultimaker or stratasys if you want to have it the “easy” way.

Kind regards
JeAfKe

[quote=“jeafke”]Some remarks…

I’ve been tinkering about auto bed leveling. But it hit me at some point this is nearly impossible with a dual nozzle setup… The second nozzle will hit the object at some point when the head is going In the wrong direction and the bed compensating.
[/quote]

That is something I have not taken into account… but I guess, if I take my time to think that over,
there won’t be problem…

But on the first thought, it is correct, so if the nozzles are about 3cm away from each other, and the print bed is that misadjusted, the chance is given… I agree on that!